Live Without Limits | How Stadiums and Schools Are Raising The Bar

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:06] Speaker B: Good afternoon. My name is Jeff Sangpeil. I'm the CTO at Key Code Media. We're going to have a great discussion right now, otherwise known as lunch, about being live with no limits, stadiums and schools. Raising the bar. Let's go through some introductions. Lindsay, we'll start with you first. Tell us a little bit about you and what it is you do. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Yes, I come from the other side of the state at West Ottawa Public Schools. We just underwent a huge really overhaul of our broadcasting facility thanks to Key Code. And we're doing some pretty awesome things with high school students. And I've been at this for just over 20 years. [00:00:53] Speaker B: Awesome. John looks like he's been with it a little longer. Can you tell us a little bit about you and your background? [00:01:00] Speaker C: John Rutherford with Key Code Media, senior solution architect. Helped put the Lego blocks together to make some pretty cool technology work. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Awesome. And Stan, tell us a little bit about you and what you do. [00:01:13] Speaker D: Yeah, I'm Stan Fracker. I'm the operational director of broadcast and AV systems for the Detroit Tigers at the Detroit Red Wings. Ilitch Sports and Entertainment. And this is Now, I guess 27 years, I think sounds about right in the industry. Previously worked with the Pistons for a little while back when there was a palace of Auburn Hills. So I'd all been here in the metro Detroit area. [00:01:35] Speaker B: Awesome. So let's dive into workflow evolution and we're going to break it down by classes of equipment. So in the past year or two, what part of your production workflow have you had to rethink or rebuild what's had the biggest impact on how your team operates? Let's first start with cameras. Stan, we'll go with you first on the camera side. [00:01:55] Speaker D: So I'm sort of in the unique position that I'm just at sort of the, I don't know, the 95% mark of completing a complete control room overhaul at Comerica Park. So literally have just gone through this process. On the camera side, we elected to go with Grass Valley as our camera provider. Went with, you know, their 150 series for the high frame rate capabilities. Also 135 for some of our lower angle cameras and a couple of their handheld models too as well for our wireless cams. And Grass Valley basically met everything that we had set out, you know, to achieve. And then also we were able to work with them to, to accomplish all our goals. In addition, on the camera side, getting the high frame rate that I mentioned as well. In addition to that, we took like a real overview of our ballpark and tried to identify areas where we needed additional coverage. And that's where we leaned in really heavy on Panasonic and their PTZ cameras. We put four cameras in our backstop, which we'd never had before, which hopefully if you're watching the games at home, you'll, you'll see those replays often and give you really some pretty dramatic looks at, you know, whether it's a ball leaving a bat, hopefully off of 1R hitters, or whether it's a great terror scubal strikeout. You see some really interesting angles from those four cameras behind there. We also added a couple of cameras and a bullpen, a couple more on our concourse. And so we really went heavy in the PTZ cameras and I've already seen immediate results. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Awesome. Anything automated with any of those? I'm sorry, Anything automated with those batched up cameras? [00:03:29] Speaker D: No, we, we do have operators for them. Yeah, for the most part, just in the nature of sports and what we ask out of those particular positions, we do man them, but, you know, we have probably about a dozen cameras at the hands of two operators. [00:03:43] Speaker B: Awesome. John, what are you seeing in terms of the evolution of cameras that you're working with with clients all over the area? [00:03:51] Speaker C: Well, obviously resolution is a big driver for that particular type of product. The introduction to some of the AI tools starting to have some traction. Just the functionality and capabilities via network and things along those lines. You know, again, there's, there's a level of segmentation as far as use case for different camera systems and there's a lot of growth in kind of that middle space as far as different camera systems. So that's kind of been what I've been looking at. [00:04:24] Speaker B: Awesome. Lindsay, what are you seeing in terms of cameras with how your workflow's been evolving? [00:04:30] Speaker A: Well, as I mentioned, everything is new at West Ottawa High School. So as far as cameras, we obviously have three studio cameras. We now have ndi, NDI source in a podcast studio, and we have some classroom cameras that are available for student checkout. The NDI piece has been huge for us. I'm sure you're going to bring that up later, but we are able to source the Performing Arts center right down the hall in the stadium. And if you would like to know specifics about any of our cameras, you would have to ask John, because I'm not your gal for that one. [00:05:12] Speaker B: Well, one specific I can ask you. Are you seeing that podcast studio get a lot more use than you thought? [00:05:20] Speaker A: Yes. Podcasts are huge right now. The Kids are really interested in it. A few of my. We were in a podcast with our athletic director a few months ago, but as far as using our podcast studio, we've kind of just used it as a source in some of our other work as well. Just as, like, another set which they've really liked. And we look forward to next year maybe doing some more regular podcasting with the students. We do a lot of other broadcasts, so as far as tackling everything new this year all at once, we got really far with all the things, but podcast would be something that we're excited to add next year, too. [00:06:03] Speaker B: Awesome. Let's get into video switchers. Lindsey, we'll start with you, and we'll work this work backwards. So, video switchers, what are you seeing in evolution there? What did your new build end up with? [00:06:15] Speaker A: We have a tricaster in our studio. We also have a tricaster on a cart for a mobile setup. Most excited that we were able to do that as well. We had previously had a tricaster in the studio. Sorry, there's a control room and studio adjacent to my classroom. So we're real fortunate in that regard over at West Ottawa, and the mobile situation has been the most exciting for us and all the NDI sourcing that we've been able to do. We live streamed some basketball games in January and have moved out to our stadium. I think I can say it's probably the nicest high school stadium in the country. In the state. In the state. And we're able to live stream some lacrosse in the last few weeks. So that's been really exciting and everything. Obviously, as you know, can talk to all the different places, and it's. It's really cool. I'm. I'm most excited about that stuff. The sky's the limit as far as what we can do going forward. We're just getting started. [00:07:20] Speaker B: Nice. It sounds like you're doing a lot more than even some colleges are able to do these days, so that's pretty awesome. John, what are you seeing in terms of what are people asking after in terms of switching and how they're evolving from older workflows to new ones? [00:07:36] Speaker C: Yeah. So I think Lindsey really brought that to the front. The idea of something as simple as the NDI protocol really expands the capabilities of a typical production environment. You know, you look at a typical kind of SDI or baseband video infrastructure and the specialized cabling and the distribution of that content to different locations within a building, either inbound or outbound, becomes much more challenging when you don't have something like an IP protocol to work off of. And it's. The hybrid model is very effective because like we've got some clients that have traditional baseband infrastructure, but they're not ready due to a forklift upgrade, meaning tear everything out and start all over. So we're able to kind of over time move them into some of this newer technology while still maintaining their investment in that existing infrastructure. [00:08:38] Speaker B: Awesome. Stan, how did your workflow choices or workflow needs influence your choice for the recent rebuild in your control room? And how is that new technology being implemented? [00:08:50] Speaker D: Yeah, for, for us as we approach this. Excuse me, as we, we approach this project. Our control room had last been updated in 2012. At that time, 1080i, a 1080i system was put in and it suit our needs. Then all SDI as we approach this one. Really, you know, the choice that comes at you right now if you're renovating a control room too is. Yeah. Which method of signal delivery you're going to go with. Are you going to go with 4K? Are you going to do IP 2110 or you're going to say SDI? Our choice was sort of made for us, at least on the SDI vs IP 2110 standpoint. Just in the distance that we were covering from where we were relocating all of our equipment racks to creating a data center, we knew we were trying to open up space in our current control room. All of this just steered us towards 21:10. The other part of the equation too is just simply budget. And we saw the price come down on 2110 pretty dramatically over the year of research that we did from a starting point of, well, I don't know that we can make that work to. It became a real viable solution for us. And then once that was decided, that set in a wheels in motion of the equipment choices we were making. And so who going within, you know, an Everts router was natural for us. We already used Everts over at Little Caesars arena. Had a lot of the same crew. We had an Everts at the ballpark as well. They offered, you know, pretty robust 2110 option. And then on the switcher side, a Grass Valley Cayenne satisfied all our needs and then some. And we also have, you know, the added part of the equation for us is most of our operators and technical directors work on a lot of broadcasts. Grass Valley is a leader in the industry in providing broadcast switchers. And so we just gravitated, you know, toward that model. And we're, you know, we're seeing the results now. [00:10:36] Speaker B: Yep. You get good results in the past, good results in the future. That's a good way to make it. [00:10:41] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And it's. And it's been, you know, we've seen a significant upgrade, you know, at, at the ballpark at what we're able to do and instantly able to do and, and still maintain, you know, being able to talk to our Ross system too as well. We have a whole Ross, you know, expression slash tessera system in place, you know, running all of our boards. Needed a switcher that could provide those capabilities as well as far as triggering everything goes. [00:11:05] Speaker B: And then this also kind of feeds into XR and AR extended reality and an augmented reality. Have you had any of that impact your workflow? Stan, we'll start with you. [00:11:17] Speaker D: You know, we definitely Ros offers a kind of a pretty cool option right now that we weren't able to get in as part of this project. I guess the kind of the closest thing to an architecture kind of experience that happens is we work with a company called Q Audio. If you come to the ballpark or you come to Little Caesar's arena, you'll see a lot of, you know, fan shots. We put on the various, you know, different filters and that sort of thing. They do a great job with that. They also do offer to some ability to kind of display graphics that seem within the scene, you know, do a little bit of motion tracking and so that, you know, only enhances the product. So that's been very good. And I see that, you know, you know, if we talk about, you know, technologies on the forefront, you do see that happening more and more. Not just, you know, when you're watching the, you know, the NFL at home and they show a matchup of the two quarterbacks and it looks like it's literally on the field, but you're seeing that now in every stadium with their graphics package. And as you watch the scoreboard, as we get challenged more and more to provide kind of a broadcast level experience for the people that are in our, you know, in our venues. [00:12:20] Speaker B: Awesome. Lindsey, what do you working with in terms of graphics and maybe a little bit into AR and XR with, you know, the students you're bringing on up? [00:12:29] Speaker A: Well, what we're doing with our students right now is we just kind of started really just this semester. The live broadcasting class that we're working through right now is six trailblazing students. What we're really excited about is the connection that we're having with our live stream and we're Working to connect that with that. The Daktronics boards that you see in stadiums, we have those at our stadium and they're going to be installing three more in our gym this summer. So I'm really excited about using graphics in our livestream and having those two things talk to each other. That's one thing that we're most excited about. But as I mentioned before, just kind of taking it a day at a time and figuring things out as we go. But it's going really well and we'll see. [00:13:19] Speaker B: One of the first things I did in high school TV was Chiron operator. So graphics is near and dear to my heart. It's where I began. John, what are you seeing in terms of people asking about XR, AR or just regular old graphics solutions? [00:13:36] Speaker C: Well, again, I think it's a matter of the use case and how that content's going to be created and distributed. Traditional graphics systems require again, going back to the baseband model, you know, a key, a fill. It's a more complicated kind of infrastructure setup. As we're looking at any of the IP based protocols like 2110 or NDI, again, it makes some of that a little easier for implementation and distribution. And then things like with augmented reality, being able to start bringing some of that into the viewer experience. Still a little bit of a learning curve there, but it's exciting to see, particularly with some of the AI tools that are out there, how some of that's becoming a little more functional. [00:14:24] Speaker B: Awesome. Lindsay, you had mentioned earlier about the mobile setup you guys have. Would you consider that to be a fly pack, or we call them fly packs in our world. But how has that mobile setup been able to revolutionize what you're able to cover? [00:14:43] Speaker A: Well, it was fully functional, I think maybe not till the start of the year here. So we just have used it a handful of times. We're excited about the potential. We've, like I said, done some basketball games, done some work out at the stadium. Our athletic director, we have a beautiful stadium and an amazing booth. And he's like, oh my gosh, look at what you guys are doing. How would you like a permanent media suite in our stadium? And we're like, yes, sir, sign us up. So what now is the. Was the intent for it to be kind of a mobile cart is maybe looking at. Well, maybe we need to get set up permanently at the stadium and, and use a mobile cart for some of these other things that we're just really starting to understand and see the potential not just for my class, but really district wide. West Ottawa High School is a very large district with many schools. Like I mentioned, the stadium, a brand new performing arts center. Right. We would love to stream things that are happening there too. And like I said though, we're just getting started. So check back in a year and see where we're at. [00:16:04] Speaker B: We definitely will. It's great that the mobile setup is allowing you to see venues where maybe we need something a little more permanent here because we're using this a lot. Stan, are you seeing anything in terms of. I would feel that your workflow for ENG style is more news ish but. Or do you. Or do you guys have fly packs that end up going out for things like spring training or. [00:16:28] Speaker D: Over the years we've used a few different systems. We've had live view a little bit. Last year we tested out a great TVU unit as well and actually that was real nice. We brought that in for the post season and really used it as a supplement supplemental wireless camera and used used it live in the ballpark and it allowed us to kind of do our own version of again. If you're watching, you know, NFL NBA broadcast these days, you see what they call the Megalodon with the real shallow depth of field and you know, with a kind of a DSLR style camera, we were able to recreate that in our ballpark ballpark with the TBU unit. So real good practical example, you know, of that. But in general on what I've seen is almost more of a divergence in, in what is happening from an Eng standpoint to what's happening with a live production standpoint. Probably wasn't, you know, 20, 25 years ago. I'm working with PK and over there and we're just putting a, you know, shoulder mount cameras like built up cameras, the same broadcast cameras but putting a different back on them, you know, with a beta deck and. And all of that. Very similar. These days it seems like ENG gear is, you know, much more precise for the purpose of. Of shooting kind of cinematic quality video. You know, with the variety of DSLRs I know we use Sony FS7s, have an FX9 variety of those. But on the broadcast side it's really, you know, become dialed in, you know, from a production standpoint and suited tailored toward live production. [00:17:57] Speaker B: It makes sense where those are the highest demands there keep it all the same. It makes it easier, less points of failure. John, are you seeing anything interesting in terms of fly pack adoption? [00:18:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I think kind of piggybacking off both of these latest Comments? You know, there's technology now that's leveraging the cellular ecosystem that exists and it provides another level of portability and remote production. So even in the case of like Lindsay's mobile case, whether or not that stays up in that little media room, being able to bring in true remote camera feeds through things like SRT become much more easier and efficient now and cost effective. And it goes back to this idea of the evolution of a system can continue to grow and expand over time without having, as long as you have the proper core pieces, you can add on these extra elements within the environment to bring in those kind of remote feeds without having to completely rework the whole ecosystem of your production. [00:19:11] Speaker B: Environment expandability, it's the watchword. All right, here's a fun one. And Stan, we're going to start with you on this. Changing deliverables and audience expectations. How are the types of events you're ending up having to produce, schedule and other aspects of production changing as audiences change their expectations of what you're going to deliver? [00:19:35] Speaker D: Yeah, for us it's just been sort of, you know, keeping up with the trends and the, and the overall expectations. You know, over the years I've seen it, you know, change quite a bit in what is expected out of in venue productions. And there, you know, when I started there was, you know, kind of a clear line of where in venue was and then versus broadcast. And now it's hard to walk around the ballpark and know which one's a broadcast camera and which one's. And in venue we're literally using the same technology. We have the same very similar production setup in our control room. And the reason is, I think the biggest driving factor is just what the expectations are. People have this amazing experience in their living rooms watching games. To not have the equivalent of that up on the video board they're watching at a game would be kind of silly. So, you know, we, we attempt to match and surpass, you know, what broadcasts are able to do. Fortunately, my role, I kind of deal with both sides. I do a lot of work with our broadcasters, our broadcast partners at FanDuel as well national networks. And so we're able to kind of work together, share cameras, share resources, you know, for the best experience for, you know, whether you're at home watching or whether you're in the venue. [00:20:47] Speaker B: Hopefully in the venue, definitely. Let's zoom in a little bit on that. Are you seeing having to accommodate sources from consumer grade devices like iPhones and then deliver to consumer grade platforms like YouTube? [00:21:00] Speaker D: Yeah, so I Will say about the one that I mentioned, Q Audio. And so we do the fan filters. We also do, you know, the social media. You could, we allow fans to be able to, you basically get a live shot from their camera and are able to take it and put it on our video board so they become the camera people. So at the same time where we've pushed and challenged ourselves and have 111 by lenses able to zoom in on a fly on the pitcher's nose, we also will put up on our video board. The same video board will display people's cell phone camera shots of themselves. And it's great. People love it and enjoy it. And the technology has evolved where it's fairly reliable and makes for a great experience all the way around. So no snobbery on our part on which way to go. It's what gives you the best shot, what tells the right story. [00:21:47] Speaker B: Excellent. And Lindsay, are you seeing new methods of production like these, you know, contribute platforms that kind of deviate from where the textbook score are in terms of curriculum, new and different. [00:22:05] Speaker A: Okay, so like I said, everything is new at West Ottawa High School. Not just one new system. Every single thing, every single system is new as far as curriculum is concerned. There is no textbook for this class. I'm a firm believer in kids learning by doing. And that's what we have going on here. It's very much hands on. I teach four different classes. We have different things that we produce on a regular basis. I guess one thing, if I may, I would say for vendors or any, anybody that works in this field is to just keep in mind that these technologies are trickling down to colleges and high schools and even middle schools. I understand. And we need to remember that kids are getting the hands on experience for a lot of this stuff. I mean, I mentioned the Di Tronics video boards, we talked about tricasters. They leave my classroom and they go to college, you know, at Michigan or Michigan State and they got the same stuff and they're, they're going in understanding how to use that stuff and that. So that's something that's really changing. So I would encourage you all to keep that in mind and. Yeah. [00:23:30] Speaker B: Awesome. And John, are you seeing folks asking for ways to deliver to social media, YouTube, TikTok, that sort of fun stuff? [00:23:38] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean again, we've got the perfect advocate over here because it is really important for students, for young folks who are exposed to this technology in the common everyday world all the time. But as I was mentioning to someone earlier today, these types of Programs help help them put that technology into a focus, and then they can better make a decision if it's something that they really want to gravitate towards or if it's still just a hobby. Right. You know, we had an installation a while ago for someone who's sitting in the audience. We had not finished the install and classes were starting. So it was a little bit of a shell game, like, we're going to be in the control room if you can kind of, we'll stay out of your way if you stay out of our way. Well, then they brought some students in for a tour, which is fine. And as we were talking through it and so forth, and they left. And I had to go into the classroom to make an adjustment on something, and I kind of half turned and there was one of the students standing right behind me and he's like, so that thing you were talking about, that's like on the network, right? And I like literally turned my whole body and said, you now have my attention because you just asked an important question, which means the gears are going for that young. That young man. Right. He doesn't quite understand it, but boy, he really wanted to understand it. And that's an important thing about everything that we're talking about right now. The technology, as we all know, accelerates so fast, but the students are on with it all the time, and so it just becomes a natural to them. I always joke when I was growing up, my dad, who was an electrical contractor, could not reprogram the clock on the vcr. Every time we'd lose power, he'd be like, can you fix that? I'd be like, yep, there you go, dad. But that's that kind of generational thing, right? Where students are going to be running this technology in all sorts of different ways and it's just exciting. Social media is perfect venue for that. But there's also things that we're not even aware of are going to happen in the next five years, but these kids are going to be in it and understand it. [00:25:53] Speaker B: Yep. And the kids are coming up already with technological experience. So just even on the post production side, any guess as to what the most used nonlinear editor is in the world? Cap Cut. Anyone heard of Cap Cut before? Only a few of you. 3 million users per month available for free on your phone, Android or iPhone. People are cutting video with it and making it happen. These kids are coming in, knowing about this stuff already, and then they're asking the smart questions about is it on the network? So that's a Good thing that gets us into technology trends. So Stan, we're going to start with you on this one because I think you'll have a larger perspective on it. What tools or technologies have made a real difference in your productions capabilities and how do you decide if something new and cool is worth adopting? [00:26:52] Speaker D: Yeah, you know, I talked a little bit about obviously for us, you know, going the decision with Grass Valley on the switcher and the cameras have made huge impacts as well. But I think, you know, another one I haven't talked about too much and I'm seeing its impact a little bit limited over at LCA right now, but it has a huge impact at Comerica park is basically the Ros Tessera system. And this, you know, allows us, we the video board we put in a Comerica Park. If you've been to a game last couple of years, it's over 5,500 pixels wide. So greater than 4K. The Tessera system allows us to basically display content pixel for pixel on that. So greater than 4K resolution. And this is particularly clear, like we have that kind of stone tire that comes to life, you know, an animated version. All of the stats are high resolution. And through the Tesswork system we also have like what we call like kind of one button capabilities. Basically being able to sync every display in the ballpark to one button on one button. And to be able to change content kind of on a daily basis. We have Star wars night. One night we can load all the appropriate graphics quickly and easily, you know, changes over to, you know, pink out the park the next day we can do that. And so that has been, you know, very helpful to meet our daily kind of content goals, you know. So, you know, as far as additional technology, I'd just say again, the PTZ cameras have made a huge difference for us. You know, high frame rate, you know, on the replay, you know, we use Evert's Dreamcatcher on those. Has made a, you know, a significant difference too as well. So you know, I add it all together and again we're recreating basically the living room experience and then some when you come to the game. [00:28:31] Speaker B: Very cool. And I think you're also probably. You probably needed to kick your rendering capabilities up a bit when you went to the larger frame sizes. I'm sorry you had to kick up your rendering capabilities. [00:28:44] Speaker D: Yeah. So you know, an important part to kind of consider too. Yeah. On the, you know, the processing power definitely, you know, and creating content again for you know, a video board that's greater than 4k as well, you need to account for that. But that was also one of the reasons too. We looked at 4K and decided not to, you know, go 4K at this time. And it felt like in talking to a lot of, you know, a lot of other teams, a lot of broadcasters, for those, you know, those of you old enough, like me, who lived through the transition from SD to hd, it just felt like it was just inevitable, right? It was going to happen. It was kind of when, when are you jumping on and you don't want to be too late and be stuck this time around, I don't get that same sense. On the 4K side, there's tons of applications for 4K. We shoot a lot of content in 4K and then convert from there, whichever flavor we need. But in terms of live production right now, other than the NFL, there aren't a lot of, you know, 4K control rooms being built, you know, for a variety of reasons. Cost is certainly one. But just as you mentioned, resolution, processing power, you know, being able to get that signal from one place to another, it changes the equation across the board. And we kept asking the question to everybody, you know, whether it's broadcasters, you know, the, the mobile television groups, you know, the world, everybody, you know, came back with the feedback. This is not something that's an inevitability even in the next five years, you know, and so once you start going beyond a five year range, you kind of realize that you don't necessarily need to push in that direction. [00:30:15] Speaker B: Excellent. Lindsey, what are you using in terms of evaluating whether something new and different that's brought to you that you guys don't already have is worth trying to implement in your facility? [00:30:27] Speaker A: Well, things work a little bit differently in the educational world as far as expenditures are concerned as well as budget. Right. Okay. So my remodel at our facility was all based, it came from a bond initiative. So sometimes you get an opportunity to vote on bonds for your local school. I encourage you to vote yes because we have a really supportive community. And in addition to having there be a need for tons of technology, obviously improvements across a very large district. They've paid for a stadium, a new performing arts center, a new elementary school, and we just broke down in a new natatorium. So we are come on over and visit. We'd love to have you. You can come on over anytime. So that's how my remodel was paid for with bond monies. So my remodels happen far less frequently than what a company could. Probably just how they function. Right? You can decide if you want a new camera any year. I can't. So that's how we found ourselves in this situation where just about everything needed to be replaced at once, which is very exciting, very expensive, and very overwhelming for someone as old as myself. But jumping back to those students you were talking about earlier, the people you work with are really important no matter where you work. And I have an incredibly supportive community, school board administration. My principal's here with me today, and. And I also have incredible students like the ones you were describing, and they figure stuff out quicker than I do, so. And that's okay. We're learning together. [00:32:37] Speaker B: Excellent. Well, yeah, that's. That's the way we all push this forward. Someone comes along and says, I'd like to do something different. And it's always a challenge when every time you go to do an upgrade, it is a forklift upgrade, having to do anything and everything. And we understand that. John, are you seeing folks coming to you saying, how do I figure out what in all this sea of technology makes sense for us? [00:33:05] Speaker C: I take a deck of cards and I. I think the reality is, first of all, it's our job to understand the technology and what the capabilities, functionalities, so on and so forth, and to try and stay ahead of that as much as possible. The other important thing is to really understand the details of the use case and the challenges that we're trying to deal with or resolve in a particular design. So when we kind of start those early discovery conversations, we're not talking about specific products, specific manufacturers. We're really just looking at what kind of features, capabilities, you know, use case is involved. From my perspective, understanding that there is a thing called a budget, and money has to be accounted for it some way. But if you start the process thinking about that too aggressively at the beginning, you start to limit your options too early. And as I mentioned earlier, starting with those core components that absolutely have to do the things that they need to do is the most important part. It's like building a house, right? If the foundation is not strong, everything else is going to be crooked and wobbly and it's not going to work. Right now, once you've determined those capabilities, functionalities, and needs, then you start to identify the particular products that could fit into that. And then again, we try to stay agnostic in the sense that we will, as you remember, go through numerous demos with different manufacturers about different products, so that it's like we've hit the checkboxes from our side to make sure that the things that we're showing the, the client will meet their needs and exceed them as much as possible. But you saw, you get to a point where it's kind of a perspective, it's a, it's a personal decision. It's like, well, I like the way this looks and I like the way this works. And you know, that's fine as long as it does the things that we want it to do. And then you have to get to the money. And so again, what we look at is there's certain products within a design that absolutely have to stay in place because of their importance in the overall design. But then there's other things that like, hey, there's actually three different options here at three different price points and they pretty much do the same thing. So we can take it from here to here or here. And as an engineer, I know that that's still going to work. But we're trying to get it into that price point that the budget supplies. And then of course we've got someone like Lisa who arm wrestles the manufacturers to the ground to make sure to get the best price as possible. So we try and be the advocate on that front as well. But again, it's really making sure that the system is going to do what it needs to do and it's going to be designed properly. And then, yeah, you have to deal with the money. [00:36:07] Speaker B: But yeah, and the thing there, I also want to point out is a lot of folks come to us who are technology agnostic and agnostic means without knowledge. [00:36:19] Speaker A: That's me. That's me. I mean, that's the whole reason we came to you is, you know, my, the guy at my school said, give me a list of what you want to buy. And I said, I can't, I'm sorry, I can't make that list. I'm not qualified to make that list. I have a degree in English and communications. I can teach kids how to do this, I can learn how to use the equipment, but I can't tell you what to buy. And some of you guys obviously are very skilled and can do that, but you can help people like us too, that don't know. So that's me. [00:36:55] Speaker B: Exactly. And that's the whole point to it. We can remain neutral in terms of vendor choices and make sure that it's based upon the technology. But please come to us if you want to be not technology ignorant. Our point is to try to bring you forward so you can make these smart, informed decisions. Change. Everyone's favorite word. How do you implement change as you roll out new systems and processes. How do you deal with training and team adoption? Any lessons you've learned, any hard won lessons you've learned, you'd like to pass on Start. Stan, let's start with you on that one. [00:37:38] Speaker D: Yeah, certainly the experience that we just went through. Okay. Having to have a brand new control room ready by opening day. It was April 4th. Started actual construction work when our season ended. Tigers made the post season this past year. That was great for everybody. It was a little bit of a challenge on my end, but it was all very good. Wouldn't have it any other way, but it did delay our timeline a little bit. So the piece of advice I'd sort of offer is yes, a plan for training. Build it into the schedule, budget for it. These are things we did and we still needed probably more than, you know, what, what we planned on. But it is an important part of the process and it's also, I would encourage you too if you can. Everybody's, you know, under the dictates of budget but to, you know, consider your broad staff. You know, if you're, if you're only training a few key individuals, it's really tough to accomplish in a short amount of time what you need to be able to do. And we did, we extended our training. We, you know, in our industry we rely on a variety, I'll use the term freelance, you know, whether it's part time employees, game day crew, whichever word you want to use, we rely on them. The same, you know, men and women that are working Michigan football games or working Lions football games are also working at Comerica park and are also working at Little Caesars Arena. And we rely on them to be, you know, experts in their field to come in and do what they're doing. And it's hard to do that unless you also kind of give them the opportunities to train on the equipment that you're bringing in. And, and we, you know, we, we built that in, you know, to our workflow in a short amount of time. Accomplished a great deal as we got ready, you know, for April 4th. But that did make a difference. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Excellent. Well, maybe you can trade it into the West Ottawa curriculum as well so she can, she can crank out. [00:39:17] Speaker D: Sounds like actually we could have just simply recruited some students from West Ottawa High School. I feel like. Yeah, that would have maybe saved us all a lot of time. [00:39:24] Speaker B: Perfect. Hold on. The shrank on me. There we go. Talent equation. Lindsay, we'll go with you on this one. What in as you've rolled out your program what skills, roles, or mindsets are you seeing as becoming more important for people getting into production in this new era of, you know, anything goes for live production? [00:39:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So as I mentioned, it's. I mean, change has been the word of the year for us, for me personally, for my classroom and all that we've been doing, and it's been really exciting. And I think one thing that has just proven itself over and over is the need to problem solve. And I think that just about every day this whole school year, I would come to school and we would discover a problem, something just not functioning like we thought it should or something we didn't understand. And honestly, folks, I don't know what I don't know. And I think in a typical situation like a classroom setting, or maybe if there are any parents out there, the kid comes to you, maybe the employee comes to you too, looking for you to have the immediate solution. But the reality this year, at least for me, and this won't be the case long term, is I didn't have the solution. I didn't even know that was an issue. I didn't even know that was a thing I would have to figure out or solve. But guess what? We'll figure it out together. And I think that problem solving is so important in young people today. I would imagine it's a skill you would deeply desire from your teammates or your employees. And I, I love what we have been able to give our students this year in that regard. They've got some really great life skills out of the fact that we had to kind of learn together this year, and we're still learning. I mean, I. I thought that maybe we'd have it all figured out by now. We don't. And that's okay. That's okay. I mean, that's. That's part of education and learning. But, yeah, very thankful for my students. Some of them are so, so, so incredible. Ask the right questions, tinker around, figure it out, and we learn together. [00:41:56] Speaker B: The other thing I've seen also is when you throw something at students, they come back and they. They have a solution and you look at it and go, I didn't know it could do that. [00:42:07] Speaker D: Wow. [00:42:08] Speaker B: They find out new and different ways to do it. John, what are you seeing in terms of change in how organizations are dealing with it and how talent should be adapting. [00:42:23] Speaker C: Change? I made a comment in a meeting one time, thinking it would get a laugh, and I just got a bunch of blank stares. And then it's a joke. You have to explain, and it's like, okay, that epically failed. So all I said was, technology is great until you get humans in front of it. And the people in meeting are like, what? And I'm like, it's a joke. People are challenged by change. It's just the nature of who we are. So particularly when it's something that's moving as aggressively as technology, it's very simple to feel like you're behind because the person next to you has a newer phone and they're doing things that you don't even know how to do, right? So it's intimidating. It's scary for people. Folks that have been doing things a certain way for a period of time, they're used to doing it that way, and it's not an easy thing to help them kind of turn that corner. Younger folks are certainly more malleable and more flexible to kind of learn those new things because everything is new, everything is different. So it's really important early on in the process, as these technology decisions are being made, to not only include the immediate shareholders that have been in the meetings and discussions from the beginning, but. But to start bringing in some of those other folks that are going to be impacted by this so that they start to feel like they're part of it and start to get an earlier understanding of when that corner is going to hit and they have to make that turn. It's easier said than done. But as much as possible, it's important to try and get those folks involved earlier. The other side to that coin, which is another big one, is IT departments. As we've been talking about, a lot of things in our industry are moving to IT one way or another. So bringing IT departments and resources into these discussions sooner again will help with that transition and that change over to the new thing. Every single project that we've had, like, firework, success, banner level, just awesomeness. It's because everybody involved was involved early enough on, so there were no surprises. And there's always a surprise. There's always a gremlin that pops up. But when you've got everybody kind of around the table and everybody's kind of in a comfort place, those challenges, those obstacles, those gremlins, you work on it together. And it, again, just to your point of, you know, learning as you work through, happens with adults in businesses too, right? Cause they're like, oh, this is not how we used to do it. I got it, like, but this is how you're going to do it now. It is what it is. So it's again, just getting them in earlier. It helps mitigate some of that, definitely. [00:45:29] Speaker B: And one of the things I've seen you walk in somewhere and you know that you have skills and knowledge in terms of other workflows that these people haven't seen. But at the same time, they are the experts in the workflow they do now, no one can do that workflow better than them. And realizing that, okay, we get everyone bought in to what the new workflow could be and then when you go to implement it, it's not that new workflow, it's your new workflow, it's the team, they've, they put it together. So do we have crystal balls? We should look at them and look, look to the future and say, what trends or innovations have you most excited about the future of live broadcast and events? And what advice would you give someone looking to get started in this space? John, we'll start with you because we usually don't start with you. [00:46:25] Speaker D: Restate that. [00:46:26] Speaker B: I'll restate that. What trends or innovations are you most excited about in the future of live broadcast and events? What advice would you give someone looking to get started in this space? [00:46:39] Speaker C: Well, that's a pretty broad question. I think that the emergence of the type of augmented or AI enabled tools again are still early in stages, early in their life cycle. There's still a lot of figuring it all out. Michael did a great job earlier today, kind of pinpointing some of the points where they're solid and where they're not quite, and where they're going. That's an area that has a lot of potential certainly for impacting multiple areas within the workflows that we all collectively are familiar with. Whether that's production, post production, distribution, the whole gamut, content creation, scripting and everything. But again, it's a bit of a Pandora's box that has potential, but there also has to be a proper guidance and uses of it. So that's kind of the area I'm looking at. [00:47:48] Speaker B: Stan, what are you seeing? [00:47:51] Speaker D: Well, number one, everything that Lindsey's been able to do at Westado, I think is a great example of putting at the fingertips of just a broader group that are able to use what's the, you know, what would have been kind of the equivalent of, you know, broadcast standard technology, you know, 20, 25 years ago or whatever, you know, has evolved to the point that it's just in the hands of, you know, schools, minor league teams. We, I oversee our production down in Lakeland, Florida too as well. For our minor league team there. It's Interesting. The setup you're describing that you have at your school is very similar to some things that we put in there, whether tricaster, NDI cameras, all these things that you have your students learning on. I, I think that's just an incredible kind of, you know, outreach of, you know, what we're able to do and to have students training on that. So I think that's a great trend from a technology standpoint. The other thing I just, I'm hoping that we can solve, as I kind of touched on it before, sort of the 4K delivery issue. You know, people are, you know, you're able to watch 4K content sort of, you know, when you, when you stream at home, it certainly doesn't come through. If you have cable channels, even if you do stream at home and you're watching sports in 4K, unless it's an NFL specific NFL broadcast, chances are even that through there's some compression that's happening. I'd like to see us get over that hump because when you've been in a 4K production truck and you're seeing true 4K, you realize the difference that kind of makes and the impact it could kind of have on the viewing experience. So that's something that doesn't seem to be on the near horizon as we sort through all the financial realities of the current broadcast world. But hopefully we get there because I do think that's the next step in being able to, you know, enjoy, you know, the area that I'm in, you know, sports, yet another level. And with the size of the screens, you know, that we're bringing into people's homes to have true 4K delivery, I think, you know, would be a great thing. And hopefully we keep getting closer to it. [00:49:40] Speaker B: And I think one of the things that's going to drive that isn't even part of our industry, it's going to be fiber to the premises at people's homes where we can actually get the broadband signal wide enough to get it. Those, those 4K signals in there. And the other thing I'm seeing out there, which you won't see here yet, holograms. This isn't pie in the sky. There's a company that was interested in getting involved with our technology expo, but timing didn't work out. Where they have a hologram where I could be sitting here and the camera actually sees me, and in Chicago, in Seattle and Los Angeles at the same time I'm appearing. And I can actually interact with those audiences as well because I can hear them. So that, that's going to change, and none of us are thinking about that stuff. But that's, you know, it's going to be showing up on our doorstep, probably driven by our phones sooner or later. So that's the wonderful thing about technology. Just when we think you've got it all figured out, someone comes along with something completely and utterly new and really expensive. And then, you know, we get a few people to adopt and then everything works out. Lindsay, Stan, John, thank you for joining me up here today to talk about this wonderful stuff. And, yeah, there really is no limit to where things can go in terms of the technology for live production.